1 Topic by Chas Tennis (edited by Chas Tennis 2011-06-14 20:45:40)

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The problem: when I uploaded the file “CIMGO237.AVI with Track”   to Vimeo it plays the video but there is no tracker path displayed. ?

http://vimeo.com/25082854


I downloaded a version of Kinovea 2 weeks ago just before the last freeze. 

I tracked a marker for some distance. 

I saved the video using, I believe-
**   “Permanently paint key images data on the video.”
It is possible that since I can’t distinguish the difference between the two options I may have used –
**  “Combine video and key images data in the file.”
[I'd recommend rewording these.]

I renamed the file “CIMGO237.AVI with Track”.

This file is now in my Kinovea folder.  If I play it in K the tracker path appears. 

Is this tracker path now in the video file "CIMGO237.AVI with Track" or is the path only displayed when viewed in K?

Second, a “CIMGO237-0.00.02.387” jpg file appeared in my Kinovea folder.  I don’t recall creating it but I may have. It is a still of one frame with the complete track path.

[img align=C]http://images2.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp5399%3A%3Enu%3D92%3B5%3E359%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D33%3A7444874348nu0mrj[/img]

2 Reply by coachgeo (edited by coachgeo 2011-06-15 17:00:36)

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Chas Tennis wrote:

...
I saved the video using, I believe-
**   “Permanently paint key images data on the video.”
It is possible that since I can’t distinguish the difference between the two options I may have used –
**  “Combine video and key images data in the file.”
[I'd recommend rewording these.]..

Can see your thinking.... problem is the thinking though LOL>


Base Example-

. poster board w/ an image on it.  (represents video as a whole or a key image)
. Clear plastic Sheet with image painted on it  (represents trace, angle, grid...) used to overlay the poster board to highlight things on the posterboard.

permanently paint key image's data on the video-  does just that... it overlays the two permanently together.  The plastic in above example is slipped out like a magician pulling a table cloth leaving the dishes perfectly in place.   Thusly of course in this example.... now the paint adheres to the poster board... making two things become one never to be seperated again.  Whole thing folded up and stored in a file, in a file cabnet.    Menu Label describes that just fine

Combine video and key images data in the file- does just that.... takes two (or more) pieces such as example above and puts them in one location. They can be seperated still after taking them out of where they were stored. Using example- Both Poster board and clear plastic sheet are folded up together and placed in a file.  Again Label seems to fit this just fine too.

3 Reply by Chas Tennis

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coachgeo

Thank you for the analogy, it helped clarify the K video save operation.     

1) I viewed my video from the K folder on K with the track showing. 

2) I saved it again this time being sure to use

“Permanently paint key images data on the video.”

It worked to put the track into the video.  The track is now in this VIMEO video.  http://vimeo.com/25144725
--------------------------------------------------------------
The first occasion I must have used

“Combine video and key images data in the file.”

This method of saving as you describe recorded the information as video plus other (in two files?).  Apparently in this mode K associates the video & track info and will show the track even if it is not in the video.   

I believe that wording for the less apt is always a good idea.   “Key images data” might be synonymous with track data to the knowledgeable.  But I view the term “key images” to mean selected frames of the video with or without overlays.  I don’t recall working with a key image when I did the tracking operation.

4 Reply by joan (edited by joan 2011-06-15 21:41:02)

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Hi,
I totally agree that the wording is confusing. I have struggled since the begining to find something appropriate.

Here is a proposition to simplify the save dialog:
1 - Remove the first option of saving the video "naked". (If you want to save the video without any drawings on, just don't add drawings in the first place).
2 - Change the wording of the next options to:

A - Save video while keeping tools modifiable
B - Save video with tools applied on images

Let me know if these seem more straightforward.
The wording issue came from the fact that the set of things that can be painted on the video is heterogenous. There are the drawings like arrows or labels which are attached to a key image, there are grids or magnifier that are not attached to a key image, there are tracks and chrono, etc. The internal name is "Metadata" but that's not telling much to the user.

The caveat with the new wording is that it does not necessarily convey the fact that option A will save the key image comments (the block of formatted text). Also, you still have to "guess" that when saved with option A, the drawings will not show up in regular players or in YouTube, Vimeo, etc.
But overall I think it's clearer.

Technically, option A use a special stream to save the meta data. A multimedia file can contain for example a video stream, an audio stream, several subtitle streams, all packed in a single container. This technique is used to embed the metadata inside a single file. The format is specific to Kinovea, so the extra data is only visible when reopening the file in Kinovea, not in other multimedia players. The option of saving the data in a external file is also provided as the last option of the same dialog.

Let me know what you think of the new wording.

5 Reply by Chas Tennis

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The important information seems to be:
1) What is saved.
2) What the saved video displays in both Kinovea and other players. Tracks, labels, grids,…etc.
3) Other information retrievable only by Kinovea.  Comments, velocities,……etc.

The screen where the options are presented has plenty of space to add some clarifying text even if incomplete.   

I have not put much thought into this wording and am not qualified to do so. The idea is to use more space to clarify & list what is saved and what can be viewed with K and other viewers. First, use a few words for each option. Second, shorten the information discussed in your reply.  Example -

A. Save unchanged video along with additional information used only by Kinovea.

Other Viewers - original video displayed.
Kinovea - comments, tracks, labels, grids....etc........will be saved (as Metadata) for viewing/use/retrieval? only in Kinovea.

B.  Save with permanent overlays to the video.

Kinovea & Other Viewers - tracks, labels, grids,....., etc., (as now viewed in K?) will be saved permanently and displayed in the video.
Kinovea - comments, ...,etc., will be saved within the same video file (as Metadata).

“Metadata” is defined on the internet so you could use it.  Give short footnote definition? Even I have an idea of what Metadata is now!

It seems to me that if the permanent option B. is used then the overlays are really in the video, overwriting the original video information. Then Kinovea could not be used to do additional tracking operations, etc.  Is that correct?  Option B would be the final save of work done in K for use outside in other viewers. ?

6 Reply by joan

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Well I wish there was a way to express the subtleties of the various options and be concise at the same time, but yes, the dialog will probably have to be more verbose to work.

I mix and matched ideas from your post and what I had in mind.
Here is the new tentative. Feedback appreciated on wording, grammar, etc.

http://www.kinovea.org/screencaps/0.8.x/savedialog.png

Guidelines
- Forbidden/obscure words: metadata, stream, muxed.
- option title: as simple as possible while retaining the meaning and not be ambiguous with other options.
- hint text: explain what will be saved and what will be the behavior of the exported file in other players as well as in Kinovea.

7 Reply by Chas Tennis

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joan wrote:

........ Feedback appreciated on wording, grammar, etc.

http://www.kinovea.org/screencaps/0.8.x/savedialog.png

Guidelines
- Forbidden/obscure words: metadata, stream, muxed.   
- option title: as simple as possible while retaining the meaning and not be ambiguous with other options.
- hint text: explain what will be saved and what will be the behavior of the exported file in other players as well as in Kinovea.

Your new wording covers nearly all of my uncertainty and issues.

I have no background in software other than as a user.  Generally I waste a lot of time interpreting some of the computer software terms. 

Unlike the term "drawings", the term "tools" is still causing me to do interpretations.   To me now the term "Tools" refers to some software, probably accessible by an icon, often in a toolbar, that produces something, label, comments, etc. for the video or the other accompanying metadata file(s).  Correct?  Better term would be for the output of the tools.  It is impractical to list all the tool outputs, labels, tracks, etc.   Is there another term or brief phrase more aimed at the end products of using the tools - "tool results", "tool overlays, etc.", "tool outputs" ?   

Do the terms "modifiable" and "editable" as being used here have the same meaning? If so I'd suggest picking one term.  My vote would be for "modifiable".

Suggest keeping the earlier term 'permanently' for the second option as in:

Save video with drawings and tools (or tool results) permanently applied to the images.

Is the term "images" distinct from just the term 'video'?  Suggest using 'video' unless there is a reason for "images".

One wording -

Save video with drawings and other tool results permanently applied for all video players.

Can the Tracker ever be used again after a Permanent Save? - To head off problems for new users. -  It seems that if the changes have been permanently saved with overlays written into the video that the tracker cannot be used properly again.   The tracker would see the overlays, labels, as any other object and often false track these overlays.  I guess that new labels, arrows, lines, angles, etc. could still be added and saved but the tracker use would probably be very limited after the first permanent save.  Does that seem correct?  If true, I'd like to see some warning that the tracker is limited after the first permanent save.

Suggest also putting the permanent save option at the bottom of the list as it seems like the final product while the other options imply ongoing analysis of the video.

As an option for less text maybe a Bullet format or Table format could be used for the important information. ? Columns: Kinovea & Other Video Players.  I have not put much thought into Tables or Bullets, just for consideration.

8 Reply by joan (edited by joan 2011-06-27 21:39:23)

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Thank you very much, it helps a lot!
I am not a native speaker so pinpointing the right expression is often challenging.

I agree the term "tool" is not really meaning what is intended here. "Drawings and tool results" / "drawings and tool outputs" sounds a bit heavy for some reason, I'll give it some more thought.
Here are some of the terms that have been used (or not) to describe the output of the tools, etc.:
- Analysis
- Key image data
- Analysis data
- Metadata
- drawings and tools
- drawings and other tool results
- drawings
- drawings and other analysis objects
- Analysis objects

(last two just added - "Analysis objects", is that too abstract? )

(edit: You're definitely correct about the tracking tool. There is not really any point trying to re-track on top of the saved video)

9 Reply by joan

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Returning to this topic.
I'm actually not too sure of the usefulness of the default option anymore. Discussion continues over here.