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Kinovea - Forums → Posts by Archer4
Hi Joan
Some really nice improvements :-)
Only glitches I've found so far are that the "Delay" on the capture screen with English selected is in French - decalage - and there aren't any tooltips popping up from the record/snapshot/preference boxes
I'll try to strain it a bit more but not pushed anything else out yet!
Many thanks
Mike
That's correct about shutter priority. Probably more important of the two variables in most coaching situations as dictates a great deal of the image quality and it is limited by available light.
The depth of field would then vary as the aperature automatically varied which wouldn't have a great influence if looking at action at a single point or in a perpendicular plane but could conceivably do if working with a subject of variable distance as a fast shutter speed would dictate a wide aperature which would in turn dictate a smaller distance between the near point and far point of acceptable focus. Often not an issue if your autofocus works or as I think most video cameras have small maximum aperatures compared to DSLRs so have a wide depth of field - if you can get enough light in to see it...
Hi Joan
For info the forum looks good with Firefox and Chrome but Replies/Views/Last Post are out of place in my IE9 - all shifted to the right so windy and very wide page (3 empty columns then 3 extra columns)
Back to playing with the new toys in 8.19 
Regards & thanks
Mike
Yup
Cricket analysis routinely working with a side on view in which the ball blurs or disappears at my default 25/30 fps. Can also get busy with a bat path to track in the same shot as it accelerates to contact and maybe head movement too
Connecting the chronological dots sounds like a very useful feature
Doesn't help Max but been trying to break the Working Zone and all fine here for info/feedback. Dialog/progress bar runs as before and I can't make it do anything apart from work 
On the basis that I've never minded asking stupid questions - on the greater scale of things what would stop this from happening? Do we need more RAM, is it a 32bit limitation, would a lower quality or lower fps recording be less demanding?
It does seem to handle it pretty well and better than freezing up but nice to know what to aspire to
Thanks
How interesting
There seems to be a glitch in the semantics in that an "anatomically neutral position" is full supination ie with radius and ulna parallel however there does indeed seem to be a convention of measuring pronation and supination from a "neutral position" ie mid pronation, certainly in all of the US/Canadian papers I've skimmed. Logical I suppose in that that would best reflect the clinically significant movements ie 50° pronation and supination from neutral/thumb up/mid pronation to maintain useful function whereas the same range of 100° but from full supination would leave you short of sufficient pronation to eg use a keyboard comfortably. In my day job (in the UK) I was brought up referring to degrees of pronation or supination lost - as that would indicate the functional effect of the restriction and the correction aspired to which would be independant of the start position in the same way as the neutral/thumb up zero. For your purposes a thumb up zero would certainly be correct and most useful as the range of motion measured would be unaffected but it would be the correct way to localise where in rotation the forearm was for the purposes of assessing expected torque, pronating muscles involved at that angle etc
Back to Kinovea - no I can't see how you could usefully measure pronation without markers and susoect that a retro-fit duplicate set up with markers would be at best a guide limited by inherent variability
Regards
[Term Usage Pronation. I recently realized that my understanding of anatomical pronation was uncertain for the hand. I believe, but am not certain, that pronation for the hand is defined as the angular position in degrees from an anatomically neutral position. Bend elbow, thumb straight up/vertical. Rotation of thumb in medial direction gives degree of pronation but in lateral direction degree of supination. In other words, I'm still unclear if by definition pronation is only an angular position (degrees) and if used for a direction of motion (counter clockwise) the term is not being correctly used. Uncertain of usage..?.. The sloppy usages of the term "pronation" in tennis is ridiculous.]
You're quite right that, anatomically, upper limb pronation is purely forearm rotation ie rotation at the radioulnar joints and specifically excludes shoulder rotation, the anatomically neutral position being full supination - so standing with the elbow flexed at 90 held in to the side and thumb straight up is 90 pronation rather than zero. The direction of movement is also pronation - for the part that is pronation. Where terminology slips is if you start in the same fully supinated positon and abduct your shoulder to 90 your thumb is now straight up but you're right, there's no pronation there at all. Similarly if you start as above with your elbow at 90 and in to your side and fully pronate (making sure to keep your thumb in the same plane as your hand) then extend your elbow you'll gain a futher 90+ degrees of movement in the same direction from internal shoulder rotation - but that extra movement isn't correctly pronation in either sense. Or, if you point your thumb forwards with elbow extended by your side that can be 90 pronation, zero pronation if you achieve it purely by internal shoulder rotation or anywhere between zero and 90 if you mix it.
Your useage is correct in that what you are trying to measure is rotation between elbow and wrist so your degree of pronation would by definition be correct as you're excluding internal shoulder rotation and the direction of movement you would be measuring is also correctly pronation, if there is any, internal rotation if there isn't
Facinating if it could and I'm sure one of the clever people will be along to discuss the physics of angular momentum and the potential spin rates users may be dealing with. The ECB use a cricket version of TrackMan by a Danish company who started out with golf ball analysis. The golf version of the system costs somewhere around $20-25000 and I think uses 3D laser doppler rather than a camera. It's taking off in pro baseball too. An international finger spinner may top 2000 rpm, a wrist spinner maybe 2500rpm and I think some of the baseball guys hit 3000rpm ie 50 revs per second. A high street 30fps camera isn't going to cope with that but plenty of high speed ones would - if you could mark the ball up with an identifier in the plane of spin, I suppose enough identifiers so that one of them is in the plane of spin then a dual function to draw a line "This is a right angle to the plane of spin and this is the plane to count markers going past/measure rotation in time x in" "and track the highlit object while counting"
Would be a great function
Hi
Until the native support arrives the (free) Any Video Converter will do animated .gif to .avi conversions. It isn't stated as converting .gifs in the description but I've had it for a while for something else (it's the recommended converter for a commercial sport analysis package that I tried BK (Before Kinovea)) and I've just done a few .gif -> .avi conversions to try it out - it runs fine including in Kinovea
Regards
I like this a lot - I tend to do cold light of day/off site analysis and then embed images in a Word doc and do written analyses. I'll look at the primer but, exposing my ignorance, the first things I wonder are what would I be able to "send" to the student? Is it an html file or would I need to host a document for them to click through to to view in a browser or is this a way of doing a neat presentation first hand from my laptop?
Does it allow side by side comparision images or short clips to run?
For info it works well in Chrome 14 and OK in IE9 although the images don't fly in in IE9, they just appear static mid page. Oddly the background blue is most intense in Firefox, pale blue in Chrome and practically white in IE9 for me
I'll kick about the primer and see if I can answer my own questions...
Mike
I tried projecting the output onto a large screen outdoors but (predictably) nowhere near bright enough. Ended up just rigging a cloth cover/tunnel around the laptop screen. On reflection it might have worked projecting onto an A4 or A3 size area. Feels like there ought to be an elegant solution
Would it help the Auto track work better if the user had the ability to mark/Select the object desired to be tracked in as many frames manually as they desire to improve the auto tracks ability to follow that object. Would assume the more manual marks made, the more accurate "auto" tracking becomes. Guess this would be maunally assisted auto tracking.?
...my feeble brain suggests that that should help too - even just a start point to end point could create a likely corridor so that auto tracking could look for something in between the shape/light/colour of A and Z between A and Z and probably on a line between them, a mid point or bounce/impact point or multi manual points should therefore help even more...
Nice idea
Don't know if this is supposed to have been fixed in 0.8.15, I still had the problem in 0.8.14 but, for me at least, it is now working perfectly
Again, many thanks
Kinovea - Forums → Posts by Archer4